WoW_Ladies: Girl Gamers of World of Warcraft

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What makes a bad raid?
Disney-Mermaid MythandMagic
souldreamer wrote in wow_ladies
So, this weekend I took part in a variety of pugged raids, and one of the things that I noticed is that whenever the raid wiped for the first time, people would just leave. It is a major issue, like every time there's a wipe, the leader had to replace 2-3 people. And this bugs me. Not in a pissed off sort of way, but in a kinda sad way. Because, to me, if we were to fly through every fight perfectly the first time, all the time, it wouldn't be any fun. It's a game, and it should be challenging. Without the risk of failure, there is no challenge. And I believe WoW has done a very good job of making death a "failure" that we can easily dust ourselves off from and try again. So, why is it that people are so ready to give up after one death?

I can see the argument that they don't want to spend their gold on repairs for repeated wipes, but I don't buy that argument for 2 reasons.

1. In the raids that I was in, we often dusted ourselves off and regrouped, then wiped the floor with the encounters on the second try. Just because it's a pug and things are chaotic during wipe 1 does not mean that it's a fail pug.

2. I'm sorry, but if you don't want to spend money on repairs, then don't raid. Heck, don't play. It's a part of the game. Deal with it. >.<

The thing that really boggles my mind is that when I see people drop the raid, I seriously can't understand why. I guess I'm just weird, but it's on those times, when we hit an encounter that challenged us enough that our steam-roll pug attitude failed that I actually start having fun. All of the sudden, we have to start talking. Communicating. Cooperating. Strategizing. Theorizing. Working together, instead of just each person working the encounter. And that is what makes the game fun!

In contrast, I've been in groups where we did steamroll everything. Where there was no talking and I spend the whole time in a daze, healing and chasing after the steamrolling tank. It's boring. On the other hand, on Sunday, I did HHoS with guildies and, yes, we wiped on the protect-Brann-encounter. Yes, we had a near wipe on the crystal-giant-dude (which was my fault due to the stupid crystals causing LOS issues). And yes, there were a couple other close calls. But I never once thought to myself "This sucks!" or "My repair bill's gonna be crap!" On the contrary, we were having fun. We were laughing, teasing, working together, cooperating.

I guess this is just me. Does anyone else feel like death does not necesarily mean a lack of enjoyment?

Edit: I'm not really sure the point of this post. I'm just musing, really, but I'd love your input!

It depends. I usually give a Pug about 3 wipes before I call it, which has annoyed some people, but w/e. I like to get things -done-, and if it doesn't look like things are remotely improving after 3 wipes, I'm not going to waste my day there.

If it's a guild, we usually give up to 5 or 6 wipes before calling the run. I do hate repair bills, but it's not why I drop a raid. I drop a raid because I don't want to spend my day doing absolutely nothing. If it's a guild, you could argue that at least the time was spent learning the encounter better, but a Pug...meh. Not likely to even run with most of the group again.

And you know - I can totally understand that. It makes sense - if you are hitting your head against the wall, then you should back away and take a break. But 1 wipe? Bah. Wipe 1 is just breaking the pug in!

It's not the death, it's the quality of death: if you die but are close, or have worked really hard, it's still fine. If you die for stupid reasons, or because you're watching people not perform, or just people generally acting like morons in the raid.

Also, everyone is different. Your 'fun time' could really annoy someone. It's unlikely it's *just* you, but the problem with playing a multiplayer game is that you have to deal with the facets of social interaction and realize that you are not everyone, and that while you may have a hard time understanding, these people may all have valid reasons for leaving so early, anything from 'I wasn't feeling well and wiping isn't helping my mood' to 'I'm tired, and I don't want to be here forever' or, 'This isn't worth it'.

Yeah, I can see that. And like I said, it doesn't piss me off, it just makes me sad. And my post was mostly me trying to figure out why it made me sad.

Mmm.. I can see your point to a certain extent. I'm generally pretty forgiving when it comes to wipes in a Pug. I am one of those people who will stick with it and wipe over and over, AS LONG AS I know people are trying.

But, I also understand folks who don't want to put up w/ others that AREN'T trying to make it work... Tanks who don't pull the whelps to the middle, people who stand in the flame, on the runes.. etc. At some point, you have to make a decision, is it worth the aggravation.

Me, It has to be REALLY REALLY bad for me to leave on the first wipe. 3-4 wipes is about my usual if its clear that the majority of the players just aren't going to work together/pull their heads out of their nether-regions.

Exactly. I'm not saying I've never backed out of a raid (or a 5-man, since I have more experience with those). But the experience I had this weekend was just a matter of:

"Huh, okay, maybe we should talk about how we're going to do this encounter. We might actually have to explain the fight to people who have never been there before."

But by then, 2-3 people have already said "screw this" and left. *sigh*

Some people think they're too good enough for wipes.

Maybe they had a bad night? Nerdrage?

The attitude that anyone who expects something different from the game than you is a nerdraging elitist doesn't really accomplish anything more than increasing animosity.

Insulting people isn't going to make them stay in your raid.

I think it's all in what you become accustomed to. For the first time in probably 18 months, I stepped into a 25m PuG two nights ago. It was quickly apparent that my level of experience and the overall level of experience present were very different. I had to be exceptionally careful with my DPS, otherwise I pulled off their fresh tanks and died. I had what I've heard referred to as "a case of the blues" meaning I was rolling ToC epics and they were rolling heroics blues. There's nothing wrong with either situation, but they ARE a mismatch. It was a fairly miserable experience and I stayed only for what I had committed to instead of carrying on with the group. That said, they were excited to be there and it was good to see a group learning synergy. But I don't need to pay for it.

I think people are often too quick to jump ship, yes. I'm a self-identified elitist prick when it comes to this game: I'll rip apart people's gear, specs, gems, enchants, etc. (Not to their face, but, yeah, I'm always /inspecting people and shaking my head at them.) But I'm also the sucker who will stick out a group with a hunter wearing spell power gear doing 300 DPS and a paladin healer who, when told to heal the warrior tank, didn't put beacon on me or heal me in any way. I've always finished the content with the pugs, though, even if we wipe a few times. (I did have to yell at the paladin and point out that my own sword healed me for more than he did. I'm not a complete pushover.)

Granted, I understand that people sometimes want to just run the heroic daily, get their 2 triumph badges, and do other things, and I respect that. I don't always want to waste time with people who clearly don't know what they're doing. But all too often I see people dropping group after one wipe without even finding out why -- maybe there's a good reason for it. Maybe we can fix it quickly. Yeah, I've been in tremendously bad pugs. But one wipe doesn't mean automatically mean the group is horrible and incapable of doing the content.

The most fun I've had in game have involved wipes -- lots of wipes. Working on the 10 man achievements (Sarth 3D 10 being ridiculously fun, for some reason), or doing the content while everyone is completely smashed. And I'm learning to have fun with my characters that I don't play well -- tanking a heroic on my undergeared, inexperienced, and not exactly def capped paladin was some of the most fun I've had in a while. And, yep, there were deaths, but everyone involved was okay with my being a noob.

I dunno. I do think the new model of raiding is better overall -- I certainly don't miss wiping on a boss for weeks at a time. But I do think it has drastically lowered people's patience for wipes, and that's not a good thing.

You've pretty much summed up my thoughts, yes. I'm usually too self-conscious about my own gear to start inspecting other people's (except to drool), but I have noticed that in most of these cases, people seem to be more impatient with lack of experience than lack of gear. Which to me seems totally backwards.

I was in Ulduar for the first time this week. I was trying desperately to read up on the fights, but there's something to be said for experiencing the fight as well. On Ignus, the leader actually stopped to whisper myself and another raider a quick run down of the fight. This delay (it couldn't have been more than 1 or 2 minutes) pissed some people off and they left the raid, saying that if we didn't know the fights, we shouldn't be there. I felt really crummy, until someone else in the raid laughed and said that the people who had left had been in mostly blues. "I'd rather have someone who is geared and experiencing the fights for the first time than someone who isn't geared." *warm fuzzy*

Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting that people shouldn't research the fights - just that sometimes I can research a fight and still be a little confused/nervous until I experience it myself.

I know someone else mentioned it, but I'm one of those people who goes with a three wipe rule. Third wipe, same boss, I'm out.

I think that a lot of people leave because they aren't interested in having difficulties with fights that are probably NOT progression fights for their guild. I've spent the past week wiping on various hardmodes between Ulduar and ToGC, and I can tell you honestly that if I was running Sarth +0 for badges and we wiped, I'd be out. Almost immediately.

People are more inclined to drop group on a raid that they aren't saved to, as well.

Personally, I'm more willing to stick it out on my alt than I am on my main. But I'm also more inclined to speak up if there's something not right. Wiping repeatedly on Anub because we only have two tanks? You can bet I said something in Vent.

Agreed. If we wipe repeatedly on something like Ony or VoA, I'm just going to be all... Really, guys? Really? I'm all for helping people gear up, but there's something to be said for skill and adaptation even if you're going through the raid for the first time.

If I want a challenge, I work on heroic twin valk or algalon attempts with my guild. Period.

I'm one of the most geared tanks and dps on my server. It became increasingly clear last month that not only was I carrying PuG raids, but they were more and more filled with people who'd been carried before. So what I ended up with was me and 9 people who had the achievement for completion, but hadn't actually earned it.

This is not worth my time. I'm not obligated to waste three hours wiping on normal faction champs. So, I won't be.

this here. I have occassionally gone into to help non-raiding guildies but solo-healing naxx is not what I have in mind. I rarely do any sort of pugs because if I want to wipe, I'll work with my guild not strangers who dont' have a clue.

Bad raids have bad members and bad leadership.

It depends on how bad the wipe was for me. I don't have a set number of wipes where I give up, but I always pay attention to what others are doing. If I see people, like, standing in fire or not switching to adds, especially after someone has explained what has to be done (i.e. don't stand in fire and switch to adds), I'm generally out. The repair bill is like idiot tax on easy bosses, and I don't like paying it...

My attitude is, I'm completely willing to pour in the gold and time with a guild group that I know is going to down a difficult encounter. However, I might be in a special situation, since I can clear just about any content with guildies and don't feel it's worth my time to struggle with pubbies.

I guess it depends on what you wiped on. Wiping on trash would make start typing /quit. Wiping on a boss ... it would depend on what caused the wipe. Was half the raid standing in the fire? Was the dps struggling to get over 1K? Did the MT get one shotted? A few of those things can foreshadow pretty well how the rest of the run will go. You cant expect to go in and one shot everything ... but you can expect people to know how to play their toons. You cant fix stupid .. so if there is too much stupid in the raid .. run and run fast.

I was in an 25 man pugged OS-3D run recently. We have about 10-15 AWESOME people. Really good gear, knew their class and were in a top ranking guild. Unfortunately the rest were not so good. They consistently stood in void zones and were swept away by the fire wall (one guy asked in vent what a firewall was...).

Unfortually the good players couldn't carry the other half of the raid and we wiped and wiped and then had to call the raid due to an excess of stupid.

When I read this, I thought of a couple reasons outside the validly excused people.

1) People who want to be carried. I'm referring to all those whose gear is questionably low in the first place for that raid who just wants 'free epics'. If they wipe it means that it isn't easy and they don't want to deal with strategies or pay repair bills so they leave.

2) Overgeared people who are looking for a quick and easy run. These over geared people still maybe want one or two items. If the group wipes, they figure that it isn't worth the effort and leave.

As a possible 3) people who realize that the raid is doomed. I know I've done this once for a heroic ToC 5 man. I was trying to heal 4 melee who all stood in the poison. I couldn't keep everyone up and we wiped. When I looked at everyone else's gear, it was terrible. So after 2 wipes I just said my goodbyes and left.

But back to raiding, I really don't like people who leave after 1-2 attempts saying that they "have to go now, RL stuff". I mean, they voluntary signed up for a raid, that should mean you have at least 40 to 60 minutes (depending on the raid; a couple of hours). If you have to leave after the first 10 minutes, then you really shouldn't have accepted the invite. Now I realize that things do come up, and maybe it took an hour to for raid to actually form, so there are definitely valid exceptions.

For me, what makes a bad raid is when people start getting pissy and snippy and bossy after a couple wipes when it is challenging content. I don't mind wiping, I don't mind repair bills. It's a learning experience for everyone. What ruins it for me are people's attitudes turning sour. Yes it is frustrating to keep wiping, but a bad attitude isn't going to help us succeed. (adding that this is in the case of guild runs only)

OTOH, in a pug raid you probably have people who regularly steam-roll the place with their own guild. Personally I would stick it out for 2-3 wipes before calling it on a pug raid...if it's going to be that big of a learning experience, I'd rather wait and do it with guildies. But I think for some people, they might have just joined up out of boredom or easy badges, or because a friend/guildy begged them to come along to fill out the pug. If they're not in the mood to deal with more than 1 wipe with a pug of people they will never see again, I can understand that.

Or they might want something particular off the last boss, and if the pug is wiping on the first boss, then that doesn't bode well for clearing the whole thing. They might also not have the time to spend wiping in a pug...they might have had time for a quick and painless run through VoA for instance, but even 1 wipe usually results in about 10-15min of downtime. If they have to get ready for work or something, that 10min alone could put them in a time-crunch.

They may also be experienced enough to see after 1 wipe if the pug is severely lacking in things essential to having a successful run.

Or they could be scrubs who are used to being steam-rolled through everything by more experienced friends or guildies. There's really no way to tell. But it's probably better for everyone involved that they leave when they get frustrated...if they're unhappy about staying then their bad mood will spread.

Edited at 2009-11-17 05:03 pm (UTC)

There are few things I love more than a night of progression wipes with my guildies. Y'know, the really great wipes where every decent attempt (ie: nobody DCs in fire, or some unavoidable problem like that.) you get a little farther and you figure out new things about the fight and half the leadership is tabbed out going crazy over strat sites. The loot at the end is just the cherry on top.

I don't pug raids much anymore, because my guild needs me for ToC and I have a at-yogg save for Ulduar that I will persuade people to come kill with me eventually. Some Onys & VoAs which are usually steamrolled... really, I haven't had a bad pug in forever. My server has ToC 10 pickups that one-shot the whole way through.

However, recently a trial dropped out of a guild run with no warning at all, and we lost 15 minutes finding a warm body replacement for him, who turned out to be a horrible player (lol pvp gear) and luckily DC'd for the whole fight. Which was Anub'arak 25 N. Which we neatly 24 manned for our first full clear of ToC25 ever. It was kind of hilarious in hindsight, but I am still really pissed at the guy who dropped and wasted some of 24 other people's time.

I will leave a raid on first wipe one occasion. If most of the people haven't done the place and the RL doesn't explain the fight or I'm getting the "bad blood" feeling I will drop so fast you'll wonder if I was a Pally and not a lock (j/k!)

Usually I don't pug raids but I have and its been good. I'll give it a few wipes but it really all depends on how the raid "feels". If the raid is gelling well and things are going okay and people are not dropping dead in packs of 5 on trash then I'm more then happy to wipe on a few bossses. But if theres a lot of inside jokes going on, people not listening, fights not being explained (doesn't have to be long just a clarifying Skull-Square-X, or + left side - right side, whelp groups are 1&2, ect), and better geared DPS are not doing as well as me then its a bad idea to continue.

You make a good point. There is something to be said for how a group "feels". I've been in groups (5-man or raid) that just didn't... feel good. I can't explain it, but I do know what you mean. So, yeah, your point is well taken.

I will echo the comments of alot of others here, if people are trying then I do not have a problem. this weekend I wanted to heal a 10man naxx(gearing up my pally) he has some decent gear, but I am low in the experience area for raid healing and after healing toc 10m the night before(got to twins) I wanted something a little less challenging. So pugged into naxx 10, luckily we had one geared mage, (pulling 4k dps average, 2 at first but left after 2 wings and patchwork) while we only had 2 wipes in the whole run, it was a struggle, many of the dps were in pvp gear and doing less than 2k average dps. we had a dk, feral druid, rouge, 2 mages to start with. we wiped on grobulus, and once on kt, not saying we did not loose people but everyone seemed to be trying so we stuck it out.

Now take that with the 10 man toc the night before, folks not doing 2k dps in that as well in pvp gear, 1 guy drunk, 1 guy lagging out during every pull, I am amazed we got to twins, there people could not avoid the balls, so we called it, gosh it was painful. this had bad leadership

then take a regular toc I helped my friend in, one shammy who leveled enhance who decided to switch to ele with no gear for it and no idea on the rotation, 500dps, a lock doing 600 dps, the tank doing 1100dps and the rouge doing 1400dps, it was challenging to say the least. after 2 farm runs I told them thanks but I am gone, we got to 17 stacks of death's bite the last time when we killed the black night, I felt bad for them, but wow, I am sorry I cannot heal 4 of you through multiple 10k hits from the black night over minutes.

In the end if people are just not cutting it, cannot pull decent dps for what are dps race fights, not avoiding the floor monster and have no plans to change behavior, and not doing things like stop dps when a twin is coming after you or FD to get the twin off of you, then its not going to be successful. Only so many folks can be carried, not everyone. So I will give it a few wipes, and see if people are trying and if not help some that are close, and then say goodbye

I've noticed more people leaving after a wipe when it's earlier in the week. Meaning, they have more of a chance to get into another group and would rather not save themselves to what they conceive as a fail group. If the week is at the tail end, then more people tend to stick it out just for a shot at badges/gear knowing that they will be unlikely to find another group before reset.

In any case, a lot of the above commenters have good points. And when it comes down to it, everyone has the right to play the way they want to--so if they don't want to get saved, that's pretty much it. Likewise if someone loves the challenge and doesn't mind wiping.

Wiping doesn't really bother me that much as long as progress is being made and we're getting boss's health down just a little lower or surviving just a little longer with each attempt. It's when people start doing stupid stuff like repeatedly standing in fires, there's no evidence that anyone's picking the strategy up, you're getting stuck in the same phase three or four times in a row, or people are just getting tired and cranky that I start praying for the raid leader to call the raid - people do have a breaking point, and repeatedly wiping does grate on the nerves of even the most patient raider.

/2c =)

I normally don't.

But when the group has wiped multiple times on Anub... (the one in Naxx)... well bye.

I'm an oddity. I don't mind frequent wipes, even in PuGs, so long as progress is made. I don't like being lazy and steamrolling through stuff, be it a Heroic 5-man or ToC25.

I'll admit I don't often PuG. I run with my guildies and friends for the big progression raids. But the 'fast' stuff like Onyxia or VoA? Or the 'easy' stuff like Naxx? Yeah, i'll PuG that.

Which brings us to my own tale of PuGness.

Myself and three guildies decided we wanted to do Ony10, but our fellows were either saved or not geared enough for it. So instead of sitting in LFG we decided to start our own PuG. At least we'd know the loot wouldn't be ninja'd (server's had issues with Ony-loot-ninjas). So we put our PuG together. I'm leading (the horror...I am not a RL type) and we ended up with less ranged than was needed and a OT that was just barely geared to OT in there.
I figure, the ranged we do have is good, the OT should be able to deal with welps, shouldn't be more than a couple of wipes if that.

Boy, was I wrong.

I'm one of those who insists on telling everyone how the fight works ahead of time. This way there is no confusion about who should be doing what when. (It also tests which of the PuGs is an impatient asshole, thus giving me an idea of who's gonna drop first.) So I briefly go over how the fight works and we go in. Half the raid proceeds to die to Ony's Breath. After being told to watch for it and get out of it. And the welps are all over 'cause the OT can't seem to pick 'em up. We loose half the raid during the next couple of wipes, including one healer who tried to raid-lead himself and failed. (And i'd like to say that the OT was trying to follow directions, but he just wasn't experienced enough. He gets more experience in tanking i'd be happy to run with him...unlike the know-it-all healer and his superior attitude.)

Lucky for us some of the 'PuGs' we'd picked up were actually members of our guild-alliance, so they pulled in some guildies and we eventually got that dragon down. But we must've been cursed that night. We all knew how the fight worked (at least half of us had the fast kill/deep breath achievements) and we still wiped a few times before killing Ony.

To be honest, if I hadn't been leading that Pug raid i'd probably have quit after the fourth wipe. I don't blame those who left after wipe number three for leaving. But those who left on wipe number one? Yeah, not impressed with them.

If you are, for whatever reason, going to leave a raid after a single wipe (especially in a PuG with so many Unknowns), you shouldn't be raiding in the first place. If your mood is that bad, or your patience that thin, or you headache that horrible, don't join a raid in the first place. Those who stay in the group after the first wipe won't know or care why you left so fast, they'll just know that now they have to wait around to find a replacement. And a lot of times waiting causes more peeps to drop group. And the more people drop out, the more likely it is that the raid will fall apart. It's what I call the Lemming Effect...starts with one person, then others decide to do the same thing.

I'm an oddity. I don't mind frequent wipes, even in PuGs, so long as progress is made.

I abandoned this mindset after the Karazahn raid that lasted 9 hours.

I'm not exaggerating. I timed it. We didn't even kill the one boss I needed. It destroyed my faith in PuGs forever.

I kinda like wiping. I always find it hilarious, and not in a bad way. Of course I'd rather not wipe, but I am definitely an advocate of not moaning and complaining if we do. :)

I agree with you 100%.. and the whole people-leaving thing? What does leaving the raid do? It definitely doesn't help anything, that's for sure. For the most part the only time I'll leave is if something comes up IRL or I have something else to do, IE a guild run or something.

Okay, not coming from the pugging side of things or raiding (I've not pugged, or had the pleasure of raiding yet, still working at the instances and started some heroics)but I actually feel better if we've worked at it, and if a few deaths happens, I find it makes the success that much more satisfying - if that makes sense!

We've tended not to study tactics beforehand deliberately, so we can work at the instance, and we don't write off the idea of there being potential wipes. In fact, I'd be sad if we breezed through them all.

But that's me and with friends. I'd not want to die in a group of strangers, but I'd understand if I did. And I'd at least give it a fair shot unless the group was totally fail - and by that I mean didn't care at all, not pulling weight etc.

I have rarely jumped ship after 1 wipe. I tend to base my leaving on how much effort the group puts in. If we do better the 2nd time I stick around. Usually 3-4 wipes is my limit unless I can see it's actually making any progress.

I had a horrendous Ony pug today which wiped first in less than one minute. Because half the group of 25 people had NO IDEA WHATSOEVER how to do the fight even though they had all answered 'yeah we know tacs'. Healers ignored healing assignments, tanks died, melee dps played spin the Onyxia and I ended up smashed into a whelp pit. 2nd time around everyone was told tacs, and it was about the same. Wipe in 1 minute. I left. That's the kind of wiping I really hate, where people are just idiots who can't follow basic instructions or learn from their mistakes.

There's been a lot of good thoughts out there already and much the same happens on my realm. It's frustrating for those of us who are geared and know the fights and are looking for a particular item or two (or just emblems/trophies). I do the progression night of wipes with my guildies. But I have 2 80's that are ToC25/ToGC10 geared. We only have one of each on the schedule for the week, so I sometimes try to pug the other for a better chance at loot/emblems/trophies/etc. I wish more people payed attention to some kind of pug etiquette.

I had a whole tl;dr thing written, but the summary is:

Puggers should be prepared to wipe. They should also be prepared (bring their own flasks, food and not expect fish in a pug). They should have researched the content they are pugging if they haven't done it. They should be mindful that they're in a group of 24 other people and not to waste their time too.

Pug leaders should be prepared to explain fights, deal with loot, kick dead weight. Pug leaders should know all the fights better than the rest of the pug. They should not build a pug to carry them. This seems to be why most pugs fail that I've been in (the pug leader hasn't cleared the content and maybe 4-5 people have - I'm normally one of them).

Honestly, I've been on both sides. And I agree with an earlier post that talked about the "quality" of the death...and also the quality of the raid experience. I pugged a 25 man EoE once. Everyone talked on vent like they knew their shit inside and out. They ripped apart geared and booted a DK from the raid for wearing one piece of mail (with mockery and lols@the int stacking DK, etc...when it seems reasonable to me that you might pick up a piece of melee mail that's an upgrade as a plate wearer)...anyways, after all that bluster, we wiped. And it was a very basic problem; the tank positioned Maly horribly. I dropped after one attempt. Yeah, we could have learned it as a group, but I'm not putting up with epeeny jerks who can't live up to their epeen as they learn something.

On the other hand, I stayed through a whole H-COS even after we had arthas die, when I knew something backasswards was going on. But I was pugged in to tank with by a few people fromt the same guild, and they were sweet people, so I kept at it.

My patience really is related to the attitude of the group, and how much of my time and gold I'm going to be spending on them.

Edited at 2009-11-17 06:37 pm (UTC)


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